Farce Trial diagnosis Bernhard von Grunberg: "What's happening here is insane"

Interview with Bernhard von Grunberg on trial to Catalan MPs


Translation of https://www.vilaweb.cat/noticies/entrevista-bernhard-von-grunberg/

Bernhard von Grunberg: "What's happening here is insane"

Interview with the international observer of the October 1st Catalan independence referendum, who yesterday was called as a witness to the Spanish Supreme Court.

The German Bernhard von Grunberg was called as a witness yesterday to the Spanish Supreme Court, given his role as an international observer to the October 1st 2017 referendum. Von Grunberg, a lawyer now retired, has been in politics since 1971 and has had a long career as a member of parliament for the German SPD (the German socialdemocratic party), a sister party to the Spanish PSOE (Spanish's socialist worker's party by its Spanish acronym). We found him all by himself, mere minutes after his appearance in court, with his luggage packed by his side and ready to return to Germany. His eyes were wet. This man was touched.

-You have been called as a witness to the Spanish Supreme Court. How did you live through the ordeal?

-I am a lawyer and used to these situations. But I am shocked. A lot. To begin with, I am shocked that an extreme right wing political party is an integral part of the trial. The situation is incomprehensible to us. It should be up to the judge and lawyers to decide over the facts and crimes, and not to do a political campaign. To me, it was unbelievable that Vox [the extreme right wing political party whose lawyers are part of the trial] would ask [me] questions. I wanted to decline answering the questions, but according to Spanish law I cannot. The trial, broadcasted live on TV, is their political campaign. A brutal fact. These [extreme right wing] politicals are using the judges. When it's the politicians who should be solving the problems, and not the other way around. A German court, and another Euopean court, have not found a case for rebellion, because there wasn't any violence. And they have very clearly stated that there isn't a case for the court at all. Then there's the issue of misuse of public funds. The Spanish finance minister very clearly stated that there wasn't any misuse of public funds, because he himself took care that there wouldn't be. Therefore, to me it is unbelievable that the two main claims for which they [the Catalan parliament members] are under trial (rebellion and misuse of public funds) are so clearly nonexistent.

-You seem very moved. Why?

-I am. I have been following the Catalan case for years, it worries me and I take it as a duty. But you know what? My dad was a high ranking Nazi and founded an extreme right wing party, like the Spanish Vox party, in Germany. He was the lead ideologue. Whereas I was in the SPD, and he in this party. I bring this up to point out that I've been fighting for years for the people's rights, the rights of minorities, the Gypsies, and more. All of this, it touches me close.

-You were called to give witness on the misuse of funds. On October 1st, 2017, you were in Barcelona and the court wanted to know whether you had been paid money to be there.

-I've been called for that and as a witness. I had paid the entire trip from my own private pocket. I don't know what Diplocat [the Catalan  diplomatic foreign agency] did, but I know that it is both a public and private entity. In Germany, there are many entities like that. They organize very interesting meetings.

-The judge interrupted your answer to a question you got: how would have been reaction of the German police in a situation like that. What would you have answered?

-I don't know. It's not my field. But I'd expect that Germany politicians would be smart enough to manage the situation. If the German state would have said that a referendum was illegal, then it wouldn't have given it much attention. Nobody in Germany would have sent the police to beat up people. On the one hand, it is asserted that the referendum isn't valid, that it isn't neither serious nor important, but at the same time you send the police to beat up people? It makes no sense. It's inconsistent. In Germany, I believe they would have said: go and vote, if you like, but we won't acknowledge it. And that'd be that. The police wouldn't have been involved at all.

-You have brought about the case and trial won by Carles Puigdemont [Catalonia's Prime Minister] in Germany. You are the first to bring up this example and case in court. And turns out that the translator did not translate this part [not by accident]. Do you remember what you said, exactly?

-I said that Puigdemont's case was turned down in Germany. I said that, in Germany, the case for rebellion was dismissed. And that therefore Mr. Puigdemont is a free man: because there isn't a legal case. There isn't either one in Spain. And then the judge stated he wasn't interested in my political opinion. Strange. Because precisely my political opinion is stronglu connected to what has brought me to the court. I don't do what I do just because. I have a political opinion.

-You said that you reached out to politicians in Germany to talk about it. Is this what you mean?

-That's right. First of all I must point out that it's hard to deal with issues of other countries. Second, Angela Merkel, in a public meeting with European presidents she told Rajoy [former right-wing Spain prime minister] that that wasn't right. Do you remember that? I think she was fed up. Regarding Sanchez [current Spanish prime minister], he is from my party, the Socialists. The issue is, I see a split in the Spanish Socialist party [PSOE]. The PSOE doesn't know what to do. They didn't know what to do not even during the demonstration organized by Vox [extreme right wing party], Partido Popular [right wing party] and Ciutadans [right wing party]. Our party, the German socialists [SPD], in the seventies we helped build the PSOE party, the unions, and also with the Spanish constitution. And now, in the crisis, I think we should help them too. Not so that we tell them what to do, but by offering to draw from our expertise.

-Expertise on what subject matter?

-On federalism, fiscal policy in federal states, and in managing the past. In particular, in dealing with the Civil War and Fracoism. Because Franco would not have come to be without Germany's aid. So we can contribute in the management of these issues.

-And what, you reckon, would Sanchez [Spanish prime minister] have to say about these three points (federalism, fiscal policy and the past)?

-There are those in the PSOE that share my view; and the are others, like Felipe Gonzalez [historical leader of the PSOE party and former prime minister of Spain], that don't. So there's an impasse. The party doesn't know how to resolve the issue. By force? With weird trials like this one? With a new law? What's going on in here is insane. In particular when the Catalans reacted with pacifism, without any violence. Look at France instead. Or at Greece. There, its not like in Catalonia. And I know it first hand because my wife is Greek.

-Have you seen the prisoners?

-Some of them I had visited in jail. Forcadell [former president of the Parliament of Catalonia], Junqueras [former vice-president] and Romeva [frontbencher in the Catalan Parliament and Foreign Affairs minister]. Today I saw them and we exchanged greetings. And I have an excellent relationship with Carme Forcadell, to me a very important individual. She did what she had to do: open the debate. Allow the debate. And that's why I reached out to German colleagues, of the conservative parties, to discuss the Catalan case. And I did try to discuss it, but for them it's a delicate issue, because they belong to the same European group as Rajoy [former Spanish prime minister], the European Popular Party.

-In France, forty-one senators have signed a manifest just now. And France is far more centralized than Germany.

-We have a major issue with centralized states. To me, these are against democracy. Democracy to me is subsidiarity. Decisions must be taken close by, not kilometers away. Centralized states aren't democratic. We must aim for decentralized systems.

-Would you like to add anything else?

-We must find a solution. And this trial isn't one. This trial illustrates that avoiding dialogue isn't a solution. The solution is to dialogue. It is important. We must stop the ongoing discourse about the nation. But who is destroying the nation? It is Rajoy who is destroying it.

-And Sanchez?

-When he decides what to do, then we'll know. Because presently it isn't clear what he wants. In the upcoming elections we'll see what he does. He'll have another chance.